Julio Cagigas:
Hello everyone and welcome to the MetLife podcast series. My name is Julio Cagigas and I'm the New South Wales/ACT state manager at MetLife. Today, I would like to welcome brother and sister Mia and Ben Johnson from Keyman Financial Services to the podcast. Both Mia and Ben had been in the industry for the last couple of years and are halfway through the Professional Year. I thought it'd be a good opportunity to hear from both of them around how they found themselves in the industry, get some of their observations as well as dive into their experience into the Professional Year. So welcome Mia and Ben, and thanks for joining us.
Mia Johnson:
Thanks for having us Julio. It's such a pleasure.
Benjamin Johnson:
Yeah, thanks Julio. Appreciate it.
Julio Cagigas:
No problem at all. Just to start off with, can you tell me how you ended up in the industry and a bit about the business you're working and as well as what sort of things you do there?
Benjamin Johnson:
Yeah, of course. I think my earliest memory of this industry, I was probably in grade one. I remember I had to do a presentation about my dad. I think it was "who's your hero" type of presentation. And the only thing I remember from that entire presentation was saying the word superannuation as a six-year-old, and I felt like an absolute legend. And from that point and turning probably 18 or 19 was the only experience I had with the entire financial services industry. But, I was studying business at that time Business Leadership and Commerce, and I was working part-time in retail and dad said, you know what, Ben, I think it's time that you started to learn the business. I'm like dad, you taught me this one extremely long word, 10 years ago.
Benjamin Johnson:
I don't really want to get that technical with things, but I said, you know what, I'll give it a go and that was four years ago now and I've been loving the industry ever since, then that degree then fed into, doing the graduate diploma of financial planning and now being halfway to becoming licensed. So, it's been a bit of a journey.
Mia Johnson:
And for me it was kind of a similar story. I definitely fell into the industry by accident. I actually studied something completely different and very-very unrelated to the financial services industry and I studied communication. So, I was invited by my dad just to work in the business doing some admin, just really back-office type of thing and then I guess over the years, I just really started to realise the power in what we do and how much I loved the industry. So, it was really a no-brainer going from just working in the business to becoming an adviser. So, yeah, it was definitely not intentional, but I'm very-very thankful that had happened.
Benjamin Johnson:
I think both of our first roles were shredding and then scanning came next.
Mia Johnson:
And ordering PDS’s.
Benjamin Johnson:
Ordering PDS’s, yup.
Julio Cagigas:
Oh, that's beautiful. So Ben doing a presentation at school. How old were you again, sorry?
Benjamin Johnson:
Probably six or seven.
Julio Cagigas:
Six or seven and talking about superannuation. I've got to say I've never heard anything like that before, but...
Benjamin Johnson:
It was legendary.
Julio Cagigas:
Very good. Hopefully, I didn't ask you to spell it. That'd be pretty [inaudible 00:03:09].
Benjamin Johnson:
I remember trying to pronounce it super-annu-ation.
Julio Cagigas:
Very good. Tell me a little bit about your current roles right now?
Mia Johnson:
Pretty much at the moment, we really do a bit of everything. And I think that's one of the really positive things about the Professional Year is that you get an understanding of the entire process. So from the second a referral comes in to the second policies put into force, and I should probably say as well that we're actually risk insurance specialists. We don't try to be everything to everyone. We're very-very focused on risk. So yeah, at the moment, Ben and I, we kind of deal with a bit of everything. It's everything from back office, calling the new referrals, building a bit of rapport with them. We do the fact finds, pretty much everything bar giving advice at this point.
Julio Cagigas:
Sure. And that's the same for you Ben, I think you guys sort of split things a little bit, is that right?
Benjamin Johnson:
Yeah. Very similar to what Mia said. Mia handles predominantly most of our claims side of things as well. I don't have too much dealings in that, but I'll also look after all of our client reviews, any in-force policies that come through and any advice that's generated from that I work with Dad pretty closely where Mia tends to focus a lot more on the complete new business and new clients. And the reason we do that is just separation of roles. It just gets pretty messy if you are trying to do everything all the time. Whereas if you have that, that initial separation, it's just a lot easier to manage, just the day-to-day type of things, but it's also a good experience to learn and play to our strengths.
Benjamin Johnson:
So like Mia, I guess when I first started, I was lacking confidence in talking to clients from the get-go. And so, focusing on new business has really helped to do that. Whereas for me, my struggle was I'm way too technical when I deal with clients. So, reviews is such a good opportunity because most of the technical aspects are already taken care of in the past. That's more kind of refining and getting to know the changes and situation, things like that, but our roles are so similar. Like we kind of just go back and forth off each other all the time.
Julio Cagigas:
Yeah. Fantastic grounding, isn't it? Really to be able to do that and learn the roles and learn anything about the insurance and so on. It's a great way to start. My next question for you is around the next stage for both of you and that is becoming an adviser and I'm interested in understanding the process you went through around thinking I want to go the next level and I want to start looking after clients myself and giving advice and so on. Is there a particular trigger or anything that made you go down that line?
Mia Johnson:
I think for me, there was definitely a specific moment that I remember was kind of the trigger for me to definitely commit to being in the industry long-term. I don't think it was necessarily the moment I decided to become an adviser or anything, but it was definitely when I knew I wanted to stick around in the industry and that was actually my first claims experience. I think it was about a month into my new job at Keyman, and I had really just started learning the basics of insurance, and we actually got a trauma claim paid and it was about over 600 grand at that time. And dad took me out to the Northern beaches. We went on a drive out there and I was really-really lucky to sit there as dad delivered the cheque and it was really the first time I'd seen what our dad does and how it works when you need it to.
Mia Johnson:
And I think for me, it was a really-really powerful experience and it's really been an anchor for me in everything that I do because, we always base everything off the principle that a claim could happen tomorrow and we need to advise if the client were going on claim tomorrow. So with that in mind, I think, it's definitely helped me. Like I said, I don't think that was the moment I decided to become an adviser, but that was the moment when I knew this industry rocks.
Benjamin Johnson:
It was definitely like a natural progression, I know in many cases in many other businesses, it's like, oh, that's just the next step. I'm a senior adviser, it's time for me to move on to the next couple of years. I've got to get someone new on. And that is kind of like a very clear cut transition. But for us, from the moment we started working in the business, we felt so blessed because our business has given us such a great life, has given our parents such a great life. It's helped so many clients that it's not so much of an obligation, but it felt like just such the right thing to do is taking that next step to be able to give advice, because at the end of the day, that's really how you help the most amount of people. You can be in a para planner or an admin worker, but at the end of the day, that's not what's actually helping people. Obviously, it helps the process, but it's not actually giving people the advice that they need.
Julio Cagigas:
Sure. Just thinking through your answers, what a great experience to go through and see the outcome of putting insurance in place for someone and what it actually does, I’ve been in the industry for nearly 20 years and talking to a lot of advisers over the years, some of them have never had a client, for example. So for you to see that firsthand, must've been a huge impact on what you do and obviously the decision to go forward in this industry, so that's fantastic.
Benjamin Johnson:
In the end, all that matters, right? Claims time.
Julio Cagigas:
Exactly right Ben, you're spot on. I'm interested in understanding a little bit more around your move over to the advising side of things. What have you found challenging and also what have you found that has been really helpful or valuable?
Benjamin Johnson:
Great question. We were brainstorming this before actually and the hardest thing for me by far is soft skills. And I think it's the same for most young advisers, who are coming straight out of university. This is a very technical industry. There's so many intricacies to it. And so it's like, oh, I have to know this, I have to know the difference between TPD definitions. I have to know all the intricacies of PDSs. In reality clients, number one, go straight over their head almost all of the time, but two, they don't really care. All they want is peace of mind. And so being able to communicate that and actually having those soft skills for me was really-really difficult when I first started.
Benjamin Johnson:
Obviously, the more and more you interact with clients and the more we sit in on meetings and the more we help with advice that kind of fades away and you kind of get through to clients a lot more easily, but that's what I found really-really challenging. So, I think that helped the most though was surrounding myself with data a lot more and actually interacting with clients more regularly, because that obviously puts you in a position where you have to start changing your communication styles and knowing what to focus on at the right times.
Mia Johnson:
I think for me the biggest challenge has probably been growing a bit of a thick skin. I know at the beginning of my career in the industry, I was so incredibly nervous to talk to certain types of clients and personality types and over the years, and I guess as our confidence has grown, it's definitely become easier. But I think the hardest thing has definitely been being able to communicate effectively with different types of clients, because it's very easy to fall into the trap of being good at talking to a specific type of person or a specific personality type. But in reality, that's just not the way business works. We deal with tradies. We deal with CEOs. There's such a great degree between the types of clients we deal with. So being able to use our soft skills to effectively manage and communicate with them has been probably the biggest challenge for me.
Benjamin Johnson:
I said, that's one of the best benefits of having two of us in all honesty is like, it's a bit of a luxury to be able to put either one of us with a certain type of personality. So, a lot of the business insurance we would do in the shareholders' stock, I'll look after with dad just because of the technical and kind of straightforward nature of my personality where Mia is so well-suited to like young families, young people who really want to understand the advice through and through and go through the whole kind of process that way. So, I feel so lucky that we can share our strengths in that way.
Julio Cagigas:
The best of both world, that's good. And, I'll think the soft skills thing, you've hit the nail on the head, I think it's a skill that has certainly lost its way in our industry and one of the issues that we really need to work on along with bringing new advisers into the industry, that they're two of the majors in my opinion.
Benjamin Johnson:
There's an old quote, actually that my dad always says, I'm going to read it because I know I'm going to butcher it, but it's, "the industry is 95% soft skills and 5% technical, but you have to know a hundred percent of the 5%."
Julio Cagigas:
Spot on and I’ve heard that one before. And I really like it. It nails it actually. Both of you are very lucky in that, you've gone into a business with Terry, your dad, and you've got someone that's been doing it for a long time and you can become bit of a sponge and just learn and luckily got set around the soft skills and all that sort of thing. I'm also interested in hearing from you around any other type of help or support that you have had over the years or that you'd go to, I guess, to increase your skills and your knowledge base and how to deal with clients and so on?
Mia Johnson:
I would say for me, there's probably two big ones in particular. So, the first one would be actually our BDMs. I feel really lucky to have worked with some fantastic BDMs at the moment and in the past. And I think it's really easy to kind of gloss over the benefit of having a really-really great BDM. I find it really hard to wrap my head around the technical side of things and I think for me the thing that's helped me the most is having really good relationships with our BDMs and building those relationships, so I can go to them whenever I have questions about the technical side of things. And then, I would say the other thing is definitely leaning into, what we would call them legends of the industry.
Mia Johnson:
We've been really lucky, dad's quite heavily involved in MDRT, and he's been a longstanding member. And through that, we've been really lucky to come across some excellent advisers in the industry and the people who we would have no hesitation calling living legends of the industries. People who are not only fantastic at what they do, but they're such people of integrity. I think that's just so important. It's really-really valuable to surround yourself with people like that and learn as much as you can from them.
Benjamin Johnson:
I think one thing to add to that as well, you're someone who is trying to seek, I guess, advice or assistance in that way, you really have to be genuine and you really have to genuinely care about your industry and the clients, because I may say these legends have been around for a long time, like they read straight through you. If you're the top of the person who just wants to milk people for all the advice and I guess, experience that they have, they're going to read straight through you, so you really have to have like a genuine passion to want to know more and they'll reciprocate that to you. But, MDRT especially, some of the guys who have been around for a really long time have been huge inspirations and huge support just in a general sense, not even in a technical or advice sense, just even in a life sense.
Mia Johnson:
I think personally for me, it's really humbling to be around people who have been in the industry for so long and who have so much experience, because I think, as a young adviser, even when you do have really-really good technical knowledge and you're good at what you do, when you meet people, like some of the MDRT team members, you really kind of taken back and you're like, well, I still have so much to learn. And there's so many ways that I can improve. So, I find that to be really humbling and it kind of brings me back down to earth and that's what I love about the industry is, how you can forever be improving and doing things better and getting better outcomes for your clients. So, yeah, I think that's super important.
Benjamin Johnson:
And it’s not just MDRT as well, though, if you provide your time to various committees like we do the AFA and things like that, you start to notice this trend of people who are actively engaging in the industry. It's like, they're the people you should be drawn towards, not these kinds of flaky people who rock up to a beers event and then go home. It's the people who you can tell genuinely care about the industry and their role. And they're like, we're the people you should be gravitating towards and trying to learn from.
Julio Cagigas:
You know, you're touching some really good points there so as far as reaching out to associations and so on, but also learning from the guys that done it for 30 odd years, they know how to talk to clients, they know how to decision things and it goes back to your point before been around the 95% soft skills, 5% technical, et cetera. So that's really fantastic that you're able to reach out and get help from other areas outside of your dad, obviously. Just interested in understanding, you were talking to, someone is looking to become a brand new adviser, and I know you guys have sort of gone through that process at the moment, could you have any tips that you would give them?
Mia Johnson:
Yeah, absolutely. The first thing I would say is not to underestimate the power of what you do. I think when we're in the industry and when you're kind of fully into it, it's so easy to lose sight of the big picture because you get caught up in the best strategies and the best products and things like that. But I would say honestly, there is so much power in what we do and we literally change lives. It's so funny, our sister just said to us last night, "wow I really understand what you guys do now and you guys are pretty important." And we were like, yeah, what we do it's pretty significant and that does help people out when they need it most. So, I would say for a young adviser, just don't lose sight of, yeah, just the sheer power of insurance and what we do and the fact that we're selling peace of mind to people. So yeah, that would be my best tip.
Benjamin Johnson:
Yeah. I think the other thing too especially for advisers coming into the industry who want to focus on risk is having abundance mindset. There's so much out there for everyone and if you do take the care and heart in what you do, business will come to you, so don't be so wound up in... I'd have to get as many referrals as possible and I have to churn business as quickly as I can. And I have to get everything in fullest, it's like, take your time, I guess, really just have an open mind towards opportunities that come your way and just be humble about it.
Julio Cagigas:
Now, look, I know that you've only been in the industry for a short number of years both of you, but is there anything that you wish you had known prior to getting involved in this industry? Anything that you'd wished also, I wish someone had told me that or give me some tips around that?
Benjamin Johnson:
I've got a good one. It's an incredibly emotional industry. You really have to be prepared to emotionally attach yourself particularly to your clients because I don't know if a week will go past I'm not thinking about a claim or a client that's sick or an underwriting case that really should be enforced because these people have kids and families and businesses. So don't think that it's going to be super easy and it's going to be the top of job that come five, you close your computer down and it just goes off your mind because you really do build these really long-term and caring relationships with your clients. And I think people need to prepare themselves for that because every other role and profession out there, it's you know, I'm done, done for the day. You can turn it off, Monday we'll come back. But, in insurance, people rely on you and you kind of have to be there for them.
Mia Johnson:
Yeah, I would say for me the thing would be probably again not to underestimate the power of having a really positive attitude about things and being optimistic because I think, at the moment, the way that the industry is, we've gone through so many hard changes. And I think the thing that has really determined whether people are going to stick around and be in it for the long haul or you kind of cut their career short is really a positive attitude about things. I think if you can go into all of their requirements and compliance and everything with a good mindset, I think that really makes all the difference. It makes your life so much easier and it makes such a hard thing a lot easier as well.
Benjamin Johnson:
I know it's a bit technical as well, but in terms of the professional year, don't feel like it's going to be this huge burden or anything like that. In reality, it's kind of a blessing in disguise because you're forced to keep track of the roles and tasks that you're doing, which I helped you better manage your time. It helps you grow as a professional that helps you become a better adviser. And it's not like what everyone thinks where I have to start quarter one and I'll have to go back to doing back office tasks, like they're going to honor the role that you're doing now, knowing that you're competent if you have those skills already. So don't be afraid of the actual compliance and requirements of the Professional Year, if you are wanting to come into it.
Julio Cagigas:
Well, that leads me on to the next question, which is about the Professional Year. Ben, you've obviously touched on a bit there. I'm interested in hearing from both of you and Ben if you've got anything else to add in from yourself and Mia, just around your experience so far, how you're finding it? Any sort of tips that you can give anyone that's thinking of doing the Professional Year, I’ll be keen to hear about that.
Mia Johnson:
I think for me probably the thing that I've enjoyed most about it is just the fact that it's really formalised everything that we were already doing. So now that we do have to keep a log book and we do have to really be mindful of every single thing that we do throughout the day. I've really enjoyed that process and it's gotten me to think about how, even though this task is so little, and it seems so minute and unimportant, it's actually going to benefit me so much as an adviser because you're going to understand the whole process and you're going to know really like the whole business and the whole process. So, I've honestly really-really enjoyed the Professional Year so far. I think it's been really valuable.
Benjamin Johnson:
I think a big thing for me, especially like Mia said is we were already doing a lot of what we're doing in the Professional Year, but it almost highlights to the areas that you should learn more about. So for me, it was underwriting for instance, like prior to the Professional Year, I did not touch underwriting, I'm like Mia, this is straight onto you because I’ve now gone through this year and I've been like, okay, these are the competencies I need, but I don't know anything about underwriting. I may as well have learned something about underwriting because it's going to help me later. It might not be my role every day, but it's really important for me to learn that. And it's just very clear the exact kind of areas where you find yourself lacking because you're now involved in the whole process, whereas you're no longer just this person who is doing tasks, you're looking after the whole advice process with your supervisor.
Benjamin Johnson:
So you're working really intricately throughout every step of the process. Whereas I know many businesses are set up in a way that it's just kind of like where you pass the baton on, I’ve finished that now okay that now goes to the para planner who's going to look after underwriting, now it's back to the adviser to do the meeting, because you're so intertwined with everything, you're just learning so much. But again, don't feel afraid of a log book because in reality you do it one afternoon a week it, takes you 10 minutes on our good weeks when we actually do it on time. But, apart from that Q1, Q2, we breezed through it, we're already halfway through it and it feels like yesterday that we started it, it's been no burden whatsoever on us.
Benjamin Johnson:
The other things, the exam as well though, just try and book in as early as possible and get it done because for fresh out of uni, kids like us, it's a breeze in terms of prep. Exam for me was incredibly difficult, but we both passed thankfully. So, it's just kind of knocking it over. But again, don't be afraid of that either. Everyone's done exams at some point in their life. It's just another one than the another the thing that you have to do, but like that old bison tail, hit the storm head on and just get through it as fast as you can.
Julio Cagigas:
Okay. Good points there. Now, knowing both of you, I'm pretty sure you both thought about, what the future holds for advisers in this industry? What does that look like?
Benjamin Johnson:
That's actually a hard question.
Mia Johnson:
It is. It's hard to say because, as you guys know, we work so closely together and because we're such a small family business, it's really interesting to think about, but I think at this point of our careers and where we're at in the Professional Year and everything, it's really highlighting to us where our passions lie within the industry. So obviously, we're specialized enough we are risk only but even within that, it's starting to show us what we're really passionate about. So for me, it's definitely claims. I definitely would love to step up into more of a claims advocacy role. That's definitely my long term dreams. And for Ben, what would that be to you?
Benjamin Johnson:
As soon as business cover comes up, I'm always jumping on it. I'm like, Dad, I'll look out for this one, but I'm definitely a little more of a technical person than Mia. So even some elements of investments and financial planning are becoming more like apparent to me, just in ways of just genuinely helping clients. Like I know retirement planning is not for me. Pension is not for me, none of that sort of thing, but helping young people in particular understand money is increasingly becoming something very attractive to me. But I think our heart's always going to be in risk.
Benjamin Johnson:
It's the reason why we're in business. It's the reason why dad's in business. It's the whole reason why we live the lives that we do is it all comes down to "Life insurance." And I think because Mia and me are in now, part owners in Keyman, and we're kind of solidified our succession plan is we're here for the long haul. So, I don't think in terms of moving on from the industry or progressing to a very different role in the industry is going to come about, I just think that we're going to grow as advisers grow, our skillsets grow, like what Mia said, the areas that we are more passionate about.
Julio Cagigas:
I think we've covered a fair bit, a fair bit of ground during this podcast, but I'm keen to sort of come back to you and just ask you, is there anything in particular, any thoughts or anything else that you'd like to leave us with?
Benjamin Johnson:
I think it comes back to something my dad always used to tell me actually, and it's that this is the best industry if you want to work hard and it's the worst industry if you don't want to work hard and if you want to lounge around and like I said before, you're combining Professional Years, compliance, helping clients, actually doing work, day-to-day work on your actual business, like there's a lot involved in it. And so you really have to be prepared to commit to it and to really be passionate about it. Because if you're not, you're just going to waste away. It's going to be a year of income protection changes, and you're going to get bogged down. You're going to be like, there's no point in doing any of this, it's not worth it.
Benjamin Johnson:
The other thing I'd say as well is just remember long-term relationships with clients. I know lots of advisers think that they need to value all of their time upfront and charge a lot of money for it. But in reality, if you give up a little bit on the front end, you're going to have clients for a very-very long time. Like what Mia was saying before, don't be so caught up in the short-term of things, because it really is a long-term commitment and a long-term, almost like a life decision, because like I said, you have to be around for your clients. They trust you and they rely on you. So you have to be there for them.
Julio Cagigas:
Thanks Ben and Mia anything else from you?
Mia Johnson:
I would say honestly, at the end of the day, I guess my interactions with clients, like I always try to kill them with kindness so to speak we really-really do try to be just incredibly nice and kind and caring to our clients. And I feel like to date that's not let us down so far, so that's kind of my guiding principle in all client interactions, but yeah, I think just keep a positive mental attitude about everything because, I know we've just gone through a lot of changes, but there definitely will be more changes to come and as long as you can keep your attitude consistent, no changes are going to get to you. So that would be what I would say for everyone.
Benjamin Johnson:
I think the other thing to add as well just quickly is, obviously like studying business, one of the things we're always taught is like friction, trying to change and manipulate businesses can be a really hard thing to do. But in this industry, it kind of seems like you can shift and change pretty rapidly. So if you have a cool idea or if you find a new piece of technology you want to implement, or you meet someone who mentors you in a really amazing way to change your advice processes, it's really-really simple to do that in most cases. Whereas if you own a fruit shop, if you want to change the layout of the store, it's this huge upfront cost and investment. When in reality, you can shift and move your business and it's a really great opportunity to grow as a professional and as a person.
Julio Cagigas:
Fantastic. I'd like to thank both of you for your time. I've really-really enjoyed listening to both of you speak about all this different aspects of the industry and listening to both of you speak now, the one thing that's very obvious is the passion you both have to the industry, which is just so good to see. I think that if we can get more young people like you Ben and Mia in the industry, I think we're in really good hands. So again, I just wanted to thank you for your time for this podcast and I wish you both the very best for the future.
Benjamin Johnson:
Thank you so much Julio.
Mia Johnson:
Thank you so much for having us.
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